Growing in diversity within the
unity of the Church
Church in England and Wales has become a "meeting point of Catholics
from all over the world", having recently grown significantly in
diversity, said Archbishop Vincent Gerard Nichols of Westminster in an
interview on Monday, 25 January . The Archbishop, who is President
of the Bishops' Conference of England and Wales, also expressed the
Church's hopes for Benedict XVI's upcoming Visit to Great Britain, as
well as for the Beatification of Cardinal John Henry Newman. The
following is the full transcript of the interview, which he granted to
L'Osservatore Romano's Tania Mann and Nicola Gori at the
beginning of the Bishops' ad Limina visit to Rome.
* * *
How would you describe the proper role of faith in public life?
At this time in England, I believe, society is at a point of change.
I think there is the beginning of a greater openness to the expression
of faith in public life. For some years now, there has been a great
scepticism and suspicion of religious faith, because in many minds it
has been associated with extremism and a lack of rationality.
But I think there is a sense of uncertainty in our society and people
are asking about the kind of values that we want to live by; the values
around which might hold us together. In that search, there is a
greater openness to the light which comes with religious faith,
especially in the Catholic tradition, which lays such emphasis on the
partnership, the combination, of faith and reason.
There are small signals of this shift in English public opinion. For
example, the visit of the relics of St Therese of Lisieux attracted a
great and wide interest. On the whole, that visit was received very
positively in the public arena.
Just now, an art exhibition has finished at the National Gallery. It
has been open for three months, and it is called "The sacred made real".
It is an exhibition of Spanish religious art from the 16th and 17th
centuries which is very direct, very vivid and contains very strong
images of the Christian faith. Many people have said that 10 years ago
it would not have been possible to show this art. But this exhibition
has been very successful
attendance has been 250% higher than the Gallery expected. One of the
exhibits is particularly dramatic; it's a polychrome sculpture of the
dead body of Christ. It has been said that in the middle of the art
gallery people have knelt and prayed. It has been a very remarkable
lifting of a kind of deep-rooted unease in English culture about the art
which in our country disappeared at the Reformation, but now in this
exhibition is being seen again. So there are small indicators that the
contribution which religious faith can make is finding a cautious
The Catholic Church is manifest in very diverse ways throughout the
world. Beyond the stereotypes, are there aspects that particularly
characterize the English Catholic Church?
Well, one of the most evident characteristics of the Catholic Church
in England at the moment is that it's changing rapidly, and that it is
very diverse. It is in fact a meeting point of Catholics from all over
the world, from many different cultures and languages and ethnic groups.
So in most parishes in the Westminster Diocese, in the Birmingham
Diocese, and in the big cities, every parish has a great international
feel to it now. There are parishes in Westminster where there are 90
different languages spoken by the congregation. That would be true of
parishes in many of the other big cities as well.
I was in a parish yesterday, in North London. I was there 10 years
ago; 10 years ago it was predominantly Irish, and yesterday there were
people from five different continents. So there is a great enriching in
this diversity of Catholics present now in the Church in England and
Wales, and the contribution that those who are coming make to our
churches is one of great strength, enthusiasm and vibrancy. So, there
are many Polish Catholics; there are Catholics from Kerala, from the
Philippines, from Africa. They are fervent in their faith, and they help
to revitalize the English expression of faith as well.
It also means we have a number of different liturgical rites. In
Westminster Diocese, we have about 60 different ethnic chaplaincies in
the diocese, and a whole number of different Catholic rites. So we are
slowly deepening our appreciation of the diversity within the unity of
the Catholic Church.
Speaking of bringing new people into the Church, would you like to
speak a bit about the initial reactions to the recent Apostolic
Constitution, "Anglicanorum Coetibus"?
For 20 years now we have been developing the process of the rite of
Christian initiation of adults as the normal way in which people come
into the Church. So, at the beginning of Lent, Westminster Cathedral
will be filled with those who are becoming Catholics and with their
sponsors, for 2 days in succession. It's not big enough to accommodate
all those people in one day.
Some of those seeking membership in the
Catholic Church will be people coming from different religious
backgrounds. A large proportion will have had no religious upbringing.
Some will be people who have been baptized and so are candidates for
full communion. Some of those will be from the Church of England, and
that has become part of our routine, year by year.
The Apostolic Constitution
I think it's very important to understand that this was not put in
place particularly with England in mind. As you will know, the issuing
of Anglicanorum Coetibus was a response by the Holy See to
requests that had been made to the Holy See by people within the
Anglican Communion from all over the world, principally from America and
from Australia. The request that was made to the Holy See was, "Is there
a way in which we, who are convinced of the primacy of the Pope and of
the gift of visible unity around the Pope as that ministry is at present
is there a way for us who have that conviction to come into full
communion with the Pope and bring with us some of our patrimony which is
consistent with Catholic faith?". So that was the question. And the
response was Anglicanorum
In England we remain to see how many
people will decide to respond to that opening by the Holy Father. There
is in the Church of England quite a strong Anglo-Catholic tradition, but
that's not the focal point of Anglicanorum Coetibus. The
focal point of Anglicanorum Coetibus is those, who have not just
a deep understanding of the Catholic nature of the Church's life and the
Christian discipleship but, as its central point, an understanding of
the papacy. There are many in what is called the "Anglo-Catholic" part
of the Church of England who would not share that view of the papacy. So
I hope the Anglo-Catholic feature
of the Church in England will continue and I don't think Anglicanorum
Coetibus, as it were, is going to have a significant impact
There are some who, as well as sharing
that Catholic sense of Christian discipleship also have a definite and
positive regard for the role of the Bishop of Rome. Now they will have
to choose. As Archbishop Rowan Williams and I said in our Joint
Statement, the issuing of this Apostolic Constitution could well "bring
to an end a period of uncertainty"
a period of uncertainty for those who didn't know whether they wanted to
act on their conviction about the papacy. So I think now it will be a
moment of decision.
We know that there are people within the
umbrella of the Church of England who at this time are pondering that
over carefully. They have chosen the 22nd of February, the Feast of the
Chair of Peter, to begin to formulate their response.
It's important to remember, however,
that Anglicanorum Coetibus refers to groups of Anglicans, not
individuals. It's a way for small communities of members of the present
Church of England, or the Anglican Communion, to enter into full
There have always been conversations
with individual members of the Church of England. That continues, but
Anglicanorum Coetibus is not just talking about maybe half a dozen
clergymen but rather it's talking about groups of laypeople. We have to
wait and see.
What can be said of the current dialogue between Christians and
In England and Wales we recognize the
very great importance of the interfaith dialogue. We would also want to
emphasize the importance that this is not simply a dialogue with Islam.
I have just come from Birmingham, and in
Birmingham there is a very fruitful interfaith leaders' group and series
of contacts, but it is with the six or seven major faiths. In
Birmingham, there is a large Christian community. Then, probably, the
next biggest communities are the Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists. There is a
small Jewish community and a growing Muslim community. There we have
tried to maintain the dialogue with all the different faiths. I think
that's important to remember
that the interfaith issues are not just to do with Islam.
What is particularly a challenge with
regard to Islam is that neither in Birmingham and nor in London is there
a leadership or a coherence or a uniformity about Islam. In Birmingham
now, there are about 160 mosques. But a lot of them actually relate to a
in Pakistan, or in India. They don't necessarily have any great
In London, there are Muslims from all
over the Muslim world. But African Muslims have a quite different agenda
to those from Iran, or from Turkey, who have a quite different stance to
those from Pakistan, or from India. So it is not really possible to talk
about Muslims as a generic whole.
I think also we understand a little bit,
as a Catholic community, about what it is to arrive or to emerge as a
minority in England and to be the focus of a lot of suspicion. I think
we have an empathy with Muslims who, because of an atrocity carried out
by extremists, who use the title of Islam to excuse what they have done.
Because that has resonances with the Catholics in England and their
experience at the time of bombs set off by the IRA for which all
Catholics were blamed. So there is some empathy for the moderate Muslims
which is the majority of those in Britain
who want to live peacefully, who see their faith as a motivation for
good, and who want to play their part in British society.
This kind of contact can happen at local
level, and it can happen at the level of Church leaders. It's important
that we give that witness, so that those in authority slowly move away
from a position that they sometimes take up, of viewing religious faith
as a problem for society; whereas in fact we believe that religious
faith is an enrichment of society and an important contributor to the
work of fashioning a modern city. And there is evidence to support this
Looking to the future of the Church in
England and Wales, what are your greatest hopes?
We are obviously looking forward to the
proposed Visit of Pope Benedict XVI. While that Visit hasn't been
officially confirmed, we are confidently getting ahead with
preparations. It is very encouraging that the British Government and of
course Her Majesty the Queen are extremely positive about the Visit of
We are working closely with both
Ministers and officials of the Government in fashioning a short but what
we believe will be a very effective program for the Visit. This program
will focus, we hope, on the role of faith in what Pope Benedict often
describes as a society of "positive and open secularity".
Then, of course, we are looking forward
very much to the beatification of Cardinal John Henry Newman, who
everybody knows as a scholar, as a famous convert to the Catholic
Church, and we would very much want to present him as a man of English
culture, as a man who has great stature within the cultural and literary
life of our country. We would very much want him to be appreciated as a
parish priest because for over 30 years he was a parish priest in
Birmingham, and his beatification comes at the end of the Year for
Priests. So here we have the Beatification of an English parish priest,
just as we close the Year for Priests. We hope that that will lead to a
greater understanding of the role of Catholic faith, how it is really
part of an English way of life, and perhaps a flowering of new vocations
to the priesthood.
I think our hopes would go wider than
that as well, because we hope for continuing fruitful dialogue with the
Church of England and other Christian partners, and we are very pleased
to see the announcement of the third set of International Anglican Roman
Catholic Dialogue, ARCIC III, and obviously the outflowing of that into
a refreshing of a vision about what a good modern society stands for.
Because sometimes I sense that British
society today tries to hold together around negatives. It holds together
round its determination to be non-discriminatory. It holds together
round its determination to be tolerant. But these are not substantial
enough a vision to motivate people, to lift their spirits. And so I hope
that together we might be able to have more positive convictions about
what is for the good of a human society and for families within that
And your greatest fears?
My fears would be to do with a failure
to get beyond the cynicism and the suspicion of religious belief. Such
cynicism impoverishes everybody and therefore it will lead to a greater
fragmentation of society. We do have
perhaps in a particular way
a great capacity to be cynical.
It's the marginalizing of religious
faith that is the biggest fear, because I think that would be really
corrosive of good things in society. What would go with that would be a
loss of confidence, even within the communities of faith themselves.
I think that one of our biggest
challenges is to deepen faith within the Catholic community and to
strengthen the substantial understanding of faith, because in these
circumstances, anyone who wants to be a disciple of the Lord has to be
strong from within and therefore needs an understanding and needs a
practice of prayer which is quite deeply rooted. So they are the big
Your last book was entitled
"Missioners". Would you like to speak about the importance
Well, the book called Missioners
was actually about the ordination of priests and deacons. I gave it that
title because when the diocese in England and Wales were re-established
in 1852 after the Reformation, one of the great founding Bishops of the
Diocese of Birmingham, Bishop Ullathorne, spoke of priests who, if they
had the right spirit and the right heart, deserved the name
"missioners". So his view was that every priest was essentially a
And that is partly because, at that
time, priests had been moving around the country, using places of safety
for Catholics to gather Catholics together and celebrate Mass. And these
were not called parishes, they were called missions. What became a
parish at the beginning of the 20th century up to that point had been
called a mission. So the very nature of what we would call a parish was
to be missionary.
It was that spirit that I was trying to recall by using that as the
title of the book. The double movement in the life of the Gospel and in
the life of the Church, because it reflects the inner mystery of the
life of God, is outward and back. So we breathe out and we breathe in.
We breathe in when we are drawn into the life of God and into a
communion of life, and we breathe out when we engage in expressing our
faith in action or in word.
And the interesting thing, when we take that reflection back to our
understanding of God, is that in a way the first thing we know of God is
because of God's mission of sending
the missio, the sending of the Word in the act of creation, and
the sending of the Word in the action of the Holy Spirit in history, and
then in the incarnation in the person of Jesus. So the missio of
the Trinity comes first, and in a way, the mission of the Church is what
gives it its reason for being. The communion that we celebrate in
Liturgy and in prayer and when we try to be closer to God is like the
breathing in, and the mission is the breathing out. So they are
inseparable in the life of the Church.
Of course, mission is as subtle as
breath or breeze; and yet also as evident, at other times, as a storm.
Just as the creative action of God is sometimes entirely delicate and
entirely unseen, and other times quite remarkable, vivid and very
visible, so too the way a disciple of Christ, a member of the Catholic
Church, fulfils their mission sometimes will be very delicate and very
unseen, within the context of a family or towards a neighbour, and at
other times it will be quite public and maybe even controversial.
What is the current state of vocations
in England and Wales?
It varies, I think, from diocese to
diocese. My sense is that some of the bigger diocese are able to
generate interest and momentum, and some of the small diocese are
finding it more difficult. In terms of diocese, I can only speak for
Westminster, and we have about 35 in the seminary and we have nine
people who are applying for interview and selection this year. I think
there is overall an increase, but it varies from place to place.
If you were me, what would you
ask you today, and then of course what would be the answer?
Perhaps I'd ask about the role of modern
media and things like digital communication, particularly how people
relate to each other. With communication today, young people now talk to
each other online. How does that work in terms of the way the Church
In terms of young people communicating
through Facebook, Twitter and all these different forms of
communication; these are quite superficial. They don't necessarily
invite people to reflect, and to spend time thinking about where their
life is going. It's very quick and immediate, whereas our message very
often requires some reflection.
Engaging with that level of communication
that can be quite challenging.
Just as a discussion point, there's a
very interesting topic of study at the moment around uncertainty. I read
a most fascinating paper arguing that since the Enlightenment, Western
efforts in the face of uncertainty have been based on the belief that if
you get more information about something, then you remove the risk, you
remove the uncertainty. So if you talk about health and safety, risk
assessment and security issues, the more information you can have, the
less that is left to risk and uncertainty.
But in fact the opposite is true. The
more information you have, the more uncertain everything becomes. Once
you begin to think you can base judgments primarily on information, then
you find that everything becomes more uncertain. There what you find is
that you end up with everybody having their own view of things and there
is a greater degree of uncertainty.
I think that's the perspective we have
to get past. In a way, we are all beguiled by fact and information and
the latest. Yet information overload doesn't invite us to sense deep
uncertainties which of themselves begin to open us to a new set of
questions, which are much more the realm in which the invitation of God